God and punishment

[fester30]

So the old testament god was one of wrath and punishment for sins.  The new testament is supposed to be a kinder, gentler god who only punishes after death.

My cousin died recently.  Her dad, my uncle, is falling to pieces over it.  Not just because he lost his daughter, but because he blames himself.  He had a couple drinks with her a week before her death.  He believes (seventh day adventist) that drinking alcohol is a sin and is weak.  He believes her death was god's punishment upon him for drinking.

I point out that she's the one who died, so wouldn't that mean she was the one who was punished?  That didn't help, because it got him thinking that maybe she's in hell now.  Oops.

I point out that I drink and swear and look at internet porn, yet my wife is still living.  God has not yet seen fit to punish me for my transgressions.  This doesn't work either.

Apparently he believes that since he's a believer, when he strays from the path, god will punish him.  However, unbelievers can go unpunished in this life and even be quite happy and successful.  I just don't understand why some believers think that punishment on earth is something god reserves just for those who love him.  I also can't figure out a way to get through to my uncle.  Nobody can.  It's really a shame because he's such a nice guy.  Of course, he doesn't value what I say as much as he used to when I believed in god.  There's an element of distrust there, as I must be the serpent sent to lead them astray.

[iSok]

A question for you Fester.

Suppose God exists, does He have a character?
Do the Bible or the Qur'an describe God?

[Asmodean]

Suppose God exists, does He have a character?

I take the liberty to present my take on these questions.

Even if we suppose a god exists, the question of such a being having character can only be answered in a speculative manner. A worthless speculation, at that.

Do the Bible or the Qur'an describe God?

Probably not. (If you were asking "which one", the answer is probably neither)

Yes, I'm still working with the supposition that there are such things as gods. The thing is... For people to have accurately described such a being WAY before anything even resembling the Scientific Method... Well, it's very unlikely.

[fester30]

I can't speak for the Qur'an, as I have not read it.  The Bible has several different descriptions of the character or personality of God.  He's jealous, wrathful, merciful, and caring, among other traits.  His personality is different in various parts of the Bible.  He seems to change from violent to forgiving as the story goes along.  My concern is that my uncle won't stop blaming himself, and it's a shame.  Perhaps he'd find a reason to blame himself if he wasn't religious, but religion is giving him a convenient place to look.

[JoeBobSmith]

 

[iSok]

Suppose God exists, does He have a character?

I take the liberty to present my take on these questions.

Even if we suppose a god exists, the question of such a being having character can only be answered in a speculative manner. A worthless speculation, at that.

Do the Bible or the Qur'an describe God?

Probably not. (If you were asking "which one", the answer is probably neither)

Yes, I'm still working with the supposition that there are such things as gods. The thing is... For people to have accurately described such a being WAY before anything even resembling the Scientific Method... Well, it's very unlikely.

okay, so the Quran nor the Bible describe God.

My next question: Is man a being of reason and logic or emotion?



@Fester, tell your uncle that death has been appointed for each soul before it's birth.
It's a part of destiny, no matter our actions.

Qur'an - [ 16:61 ] -  "Were Allah to take people to task for their wrong-doing, He would not have spared even a single living creature on the face of the earth. But He grants them respite until an appointed term. And when that term arrives, they have no power to delay it by a single moment, nor to hasten it."

[Asmodean]

My next question: Is man a being of reason and logic or emotion?

Depends on the personality of the man in question. Some are more emotional, while others are ice-cold.

The vast majority are a combination of the two, but what people base the "judgement calls" on, be it logic and reason or feeling and intuition, varies.

[iSok]

My next question: Is man a being of reason and logic or emotion?

Depends on the personality of the man in question. Some are more emotional, while others are ice-cold.

The vast majority are a combination of the two, but what people base the "judgement calls" on, be it logic and reason or feeling and intuition, varies.

Okay, so it's combination of emotion and reason. Is it 50-50 or are one of the two more represented?
(I'm talking about the common man)

[Asmodean]

Okay, so it's combination of emotion and reason. Is it 50-50 or are one of the two more represented?
(I'm talking about the common man)

I can only speculate to the percentage for the average guy, and I suppose that would also depend on the cultural area and the close environment while growing up, but I suppose the percentages go both ways.

In my near circles, the majority lean towards rationality in most important decisions. The margins vary - some are as close to robots as I have seen, while others are far less predictable, approaching something like 50/50. Whether that holds true for my country or continent or the Earth as a whole, I do not know.

[iSok]

Okay, so it's combination of emotion and reason. Is it 50-50 or are one of the two more represented?
(I'm talking about the common man)

I can only speculate to the percentage for the average guy, and I suppose that would also depend on the cultural area and the close environment while growing up, but I suppose the percentages go both ways.

In my near circles, the majority lean towards rationality in most important decisions. The margins vary - some are as close to robots as I have seen, while others are far less predictable, approaching something like 50/50. Whether that holds true for my country or continent or the Earth as a whole, I do not know.

By way of experiment.
Suppose I randomly pick 400 people and put them in an airplane.
And once in the sky I'll let the plane stall.

How many of it's passengers will be ice-cold and say: "Statistically I have less than 1% to survive but let's wait and enjoy the sight, could be my last moments."?

[Asmodean]

How many of it's passengers will be ice-cold and say: "Statistically I have less than 1% to survive but let's wait and enjoy the sight, could be my last moments."?

Hard to say. There are too many variables in play, like conversion disorder. People in a flock and a person alone are two very different things. If you had 400 planes with one person on board each one, then the experiment would have some value. I can still only speculate in terms of actual numeric statistics.

Are we getting anywhere near the point? Pick whatever toots your horn and take it to where ever you were going, will you?   I'll refute it later if I percieve it as obviously incorrect.

[The Magic Pudding]

Okay, so it's combination of emotion and reason. Is it 50-50 or are one of the two more represented?
(I'm talking about the common man)

I suspect there are a lot of decisions made due to emotion that the owners busily brace with reason.  The question of proportion is hard to answer.  What if emotions are influenced by a sense of fair play and I see fair play as a reasonable thing?

[Asmodean]

Just to clarify my last answer with a small example of someone I know well, namely me.

Now, I am NOT a panic prone person, as one near-drowning and a few MVCs can show. Suppose I am in an aluminium tube with wings along with 500 people. The engines blow out. Do I panic? I have no idea. It is quite possible that I do, depending on the actions of people around me.

Suppose I am alone.  on the plane. Do I panic? Most likely, no. I'd probably try to offer what assistance I can give to whoever operates the plane in order to try and prevent my own very tragic demise.

Again, it's speculative, since I have never been on a crashing plane, so the comment is meant to illustrate the potential ocean of difference between a person acting alone or people acting as a flock. Oh, I'd most likely be scared shitless, but feeling something and making decisions/acting on that feeling are two different things. Some people are good at overriding instincts and disregarding their feelings at need, others are not.

[iSok]

How many of it's passengers will be ice-cold and say: "Statistically I have less than 1% to survive but let's wait and enjoy the sight, could be my last moments."?

Hard to say. There are too many variables in play, like conversion disorder. People in a flock and a person alone are two very different things. If you had 400 planes with one person on board each one, then the experiment would have some value. I can still only speculate in terms of actual numeric statistics.

Are we getting anywhere near the point? Pick whatever toots your horn and take it to where ever you were going, will you?  

[Asmodean]

In a plane, in a realistic scenario. Only a robot would think that way, you can't call yourself a human anymore.

Your example of the exact thought was all wrong though. What a single person might have thought would more likely be "OH SHIIIIIT!!!" and then, some (and it's the percentage of those, that is in question) would think "Ok... A way to land this bucket safely... *self-preservation measures*"

Asmodean, I know you won't like my reply. I just showed you that we are beings of emotion.

No. You demonstrated that we do feel, the fact I never disputed. You have not shown that emotion is what guides our judgement when it matters in a majority of cases.

You showed that yourself, your ego stood in the way to admit that emotion is a far powerful aspect in the human mind than logic and reason.
Majority of us will never admit that we are wrong, because our ego stands in the way.

My ego..? what does it have to do with anything. MY point is FAR from lost since until newly, I did not know where you were going, I have NOT presented any absolute truths on the subject, more or less just answering questions with "I think...", and what you managed to conjure up was a demonstration of a totally different matter. (not being able not to act on emotion for the majority is not demonstrated)

If you prove me wrong, I will admit it. Although in this case, it may be a bit hard since I did not put forth any proposition except that humans combine rationality and emotion and that my limited sample of people I know well leans towards the first.

Your 'belief' may be based on logic and reason, but as soon as something is a threat, emotion kicks in and that shows your bond to your way of life.
We all have this problem Asmodean, admitting it, is based on logic and reason.

People respond to threats in three ways: Fight, flight, ignoring. The first two are instinctive. But there is a difference between feeling threatened and possibly being angered or scared by it, and acting on those emotions. Your instincts may, for instance, say "Run", and yet you have more to gain by fighting. That there would be a rational choice.